What year did they go all plastic

[whitedove]

At what year did they go all plastic,I remember when they were TEXT

[Fighbird]

That would be around 1987. Most 1986 releases had some die-cast content, but the 1987 releases and onward are completely plastic through and through.

[shaxper]

Actually, most of the 1986 releases were all plastic. That's when the shift began. To the best of my knowledge, Hot Rod, Rodimus Prime, and Ultra Magnus were the only ones released during this year (not including TFTM reissues) that contained metal content.

Still, metal was never entirely phased out for G1. Later toys like Fortress Maximus, the original release of Predaking, and the Japanese version of Powermaster Optimus Prime still contained metal. They just became less and less common.


Generally speaking though, the shift you're looking for occured in 1986, where, with the exception of Ultra Magnus, Hasbro stopped recycling old Diaclone toys into the Transformers line, and started using newer, cheaper to produce Takara designs. Some of these designs had first been concieved for Diaclone, but these came after Diaclone, itself, had shifted to cheaper non-metal designs.

[Fighbird]

I'm not that much into all the details of availability of all the various variations of most G1 toys, but I'm taking then that the early die-cast combiner limbs were replaced by plastic versions before 1987?

Also, strictly speaking (you know me, Shax ), at least Blurr (both pre- and post-TM) had some diecast, and for 1987, Repugnus strangely enough had as well.

Predaking was a 1986 release, BTW, and I can't remember where Fortress Maximus had his diecast (been too long since I sold mine off...).

But in general terms, I would say 1987 is from whence it was generally plastic all around.

[Ben-Ohki]

Not coincidentally, 1986-87 was also around the time I grew out of Transformers. Guess I was around that age when I was starting to notice that my toys were getting sh*ttier as time went by. ;D

I do have a serious question though - you guys mentioned that Hasbro started using Takara designs... were these original "Takara Transformers" or was Takara at the time making toys lines similar to Diaclone that Hasbro was "morphin'" into Transformers? We all know Transformers as a brand took on a life of its own in Japan - it even out-lasted season 4 of the America cartoon... when did this turn-around in Japan really start?

[shaxper]

Ben-Ohki said:

I do have a serious question though - you guys mentioned that Hasbro started using Takara designs... were these original "Takara Transformers" or was Takara at the time making toys lines similar to Diaclone that Hasbro was "morphin'" into Transformers? We all know Transformers as a brand took on a life of its own in Japan - it even out-lasted season 4 of the America cartoon... when did this turn-around in Japan really start?

Diaclone was a Takara toy series, as was Microman. Nearly all of the Transformers toys produced between 1984 and 1985 came from those two series. The exceptions were:

Shockwave (Toybox)
Skylinx (Toyco)
Omega Supreme (unknown)
Deluxe Insecticons (Takotoku)
Jetfire (Takotoku)
Whirl (Takotoku)
Roadbuster (Takotoku)

After that, all Transformers designs came from unfinished Diaclone designs and new Takara designs. Hasbro was marginally involved in the designs of these toys, but they mostly made the demands (apprximate cost, complexity, and general concept) while Takara actually designed the toys.

Beast Machines was the first and only Transformers toy series designed by Hasbro.


When Transformers became a huge sensation in '84/'85, Takara discontinued Dialcone and Microchange in order to begin producing the exact same toys as Transformers. Image is everything, after all. Until G1 ended in the US, Takara was always approximately a year behind the US with their Transformers series.

Transformers continued, uninterrupted in Japan until 2001, when they took a year off after a bad fiscal crisis. The 1986 G1 Transformers were produced in Japan in an almost identical manner. Same quality, designs, everything. Starting in 1987 though, Hasbro begins cutting corners. Takara puts a little metal back into the series, but Hasbro sticks with plastic. Several designs don't even make it to the States. Over the next few years, Hasbro's becomes a far poorer immitation of the Takara series until G1 finally ends in the US.

[shaxper]

Fighbird said:

I'm not that much into all the details of availability of all the various variations of most G1 toys, but I'm taking then that the early die-cast combiner limbs were replaced by plastic versions before 1987?

Yes. The early combiners were originally released with metal parts in late '85, but were quickly replaced with plastic. Hasbro might have even been producing them in all plastic prior to 1986.

Also, strictly speaking (you know me, Shax ), at least Blurr (both pre- and post-TM) had some diecast, and for 1987, Repugnus strangely enough had as well.

My knowledge gets a little fuzzy after the initial post-movie release in '86. I know Predaking wasn't released up until that point. Was he a late addition in '86?

Predaking was a 1986 release, BTW, and I can't remember where Fortress Maximus had his diecast (been too long since I sold mine off...).

Mostly in the joints, but he had a generous diecast block on his waist.

But in general terms, I would say 1987 is from whence it was generally plastic all around.

I don't understand why. '86 was primarily plastic, whereas '84 and '85 defined itself by its diecast componants. There were some minor diecast parts included, but not significantly more than in '87. No huge hunks of diecast anymore; no more weight to the toys. '86 was the year in which Hasbro began relying on TF's image more than the quality of its toys in order to sell. Just look at the cost-saving changes they made to the combiners, Ultra Magnus, and Metroplex part way through their releases. Even rubber tires were done away with.

[whitedove]

Does anyone think they may go back to a diecast series.
i would say 20 years of plastic would bring down the collectability!

[Fighbird]

shaxper said:

Beast Machines was the first and only Transformers toy series designed by Hasbro.

I was under the impression that Kenner's Beast Wars was as well... maybe I'm wrong...

[Fighbird]

shaxper said:

I don't understand why. '86 was primarily plastic, whereas '84 and '85 defined itself by its diecast componants. There were some minor diecast parts included, but not significantly more than in '87. No huge hunks of diecast anymore; no more weight to the toys. '86 was the year in which Hasbro began relying on TF's image more than the quality of its toys in order to sell. Just look at the cost-saving changes they made to the combiners, Ultra Magnus, and Metroplex part way through their releases. Even rubber tires were done away with.

Good point. I guess it all stems back to my childhood, where I had this sort of classification of the releases: The "old" ones (Diaclone/Microchange toys with diecast content) and the "newer" ones (i.e. *Masters and Pretenders). 1986 seemed like a transitional year to me in those regards, which is my argument for saying that by at least 1987 we had no significant diecast content in the toys anymore (sorry to be so graphic ) -- I hope you'll at least give me that, Shax.

[Fighbird]

whitedove said:

Does anyone think they may go back to a diecast series.

Not with the "regular" line(s), no (i.e. Energon/Cybertron). The costs involved would be too high for Hasbro/Takara these days, especially since everything has to be as cost-efficient as possible. But if you're looking for die-cast, there there are always the reissues (from both Hasbro and Takara, which are generally aimed at an older audience) as well as the Japanese Binaltechs (which are definitely aimed at an older audience).

i would say 20 years of plastic would bring down the collectability!

Both yes and no. If we look at G1, then a lot of fans back in the day weren't as pleased with the "new" plastic TFs, so fewer kids bought the plastic toys. This is evident by looking at eBay auctions, hence making a few of the plastic toys slightly rarer for collectors (i.e. Piranaking, Monstructor and the transforming Pretenders); you can always find a minty original G1 Jazz for a decent buck there, but have to shell out quite a bit more for a complete Vroom...

If we look at todays collectors market, then it's near-on impossible not to find sealed specimens of the toys released within the past 8 year or so. As the fandom grew (especially online), collectors and scalpers have been more alert on preserving mint toys because of the potential financial investment in them, but since so many have been able to and have done so, there are an abundance of toys available in the artermarket. Hence, no "real" rare toys (disregarding obvious limited editions and prize toys, natch').

That's just my 2 cents, though...

[shaxper]

Fighbird said:

Good point. I guess it all stems back to my childhood, where I had this sort of classification of the releases: The "old" ones (Diaclone/Microchange toys with diecast content) and the "newer" ones (i.e. *Masters and Pretenders). 1986 seemed like a transitional year to me in those regards, which is my argument for saying that by at least 1987 we had no significant diecast content in the toys anymore (sorry to be so graphic ) -- I hope you'll at least give me that, Shax.

(Begrudgingly admits that Fighbird is entitled to an opinion )

You may be right about the Beast Wars thing, incidentally. I think I now recall that the original Beast Wars releases were Hasbro originals (the ones that didn't match the cartoon), but that the later releases were taken directly from Takara.

As for the whole diecast issue, I think Hasbro is more interested in keeping costs down (both for themselves and for consumers) than in delivering high quality parts. The all-plastic Alternators are a good example of this. The Takara versions are mostly diecast, but they also sell for twice as much.

------------

Also, the collectibility of Transformers, in general, is almost certainly a fad. First off, roughly 8 years of ebay sales have proven that the supply for most TFs far outweighs demands, and reissues have filled the demand for most of the rest. People who were once convinced that there could only be so many G1 Optimus Primes complete and in near mint condition still out there have been proven very wrong. People looking to complete an all metal Predaking have similarly discovered that they can now get a new one for a little over $100. Transformers prices have consistantly fallen throughout the ebay age. As someone who was buying and selling on ebay back in 1998, I can tell you that there was a time when a vintage Prowl in near mint without weapons, box, or instructions could sell for $200 because collectors were convinced there were only so many out there without broken canopies. Now you're lucky if you get $20 for one. I remember that, in my first batch of auctions as an ebay seller, I sold a G1 Prime that was very worn, had a very worn box, and was missing the gas hose, gas nozzle, rifle, and all missiles, sold for $150. I also sold a very worn Powermaster Optimus Prime WITHOUT ITS HEAD for $40.

The second reason that Transformers collecting is a fad is that it's a retro hobby. The majority of collectors are young men that have just started their careers, have a little extra cash, and are nostalgic for their childhoods. Gradually, we're seeing these young men take on more financial responsibilities (homes, marriage, children), causing them to stop collecting and, often times, liquidate their collections. Some major collections have been sold on ebay over the past three years because of this, and many more collectors have simply dropped out for the same reason. Demand drops and supply increases. Meanwhile, the next generation of young men starting their careers didn't grow up on Transformers (or if they did, they grew up on Beast Wars), so the demand isn't replenished.

In short, TF prices have dropped significantly over the past decade, and it's only going to get worse. The few diehard collectors that remain in the market will expect significantly lower prices for the items they want once overall demand dries up. As a vintage comic collector in an age when no one collects vintage comics anymore, I do the very same thing. I go to conventions and pay $5 for issues with $20 price tags on them. I already see hobby shops with dusty TFs bearing three year old price tags that will never move until they are significantly discounted. It will only get worse.

Finally, vintage TF sales thrived during a time in which no new vehicle to robot Transformers were available. Once exciting and affordable new TFs became available, people stopped taking as much of an interest in the older, harder to find, more costly ones. Keeping up with the new stuff (as any loyal TF fan would) also left most collectors with less money to spend on vintage stuff, lowering ebay final bids, and generally affecting the perceived value of vintage toys. Now Hasbro and Takara are flooding us with an overwhelming number of new TFs from a variety of series. It's impossible to keep up with all the new stuff, which makes collecting the vintage stuff even less of a priority. As Hasbro continues to produce vast new lines of TFs, demand for vintage items will only continue to decline.

So, for all three of the above reasons, TF collecting is doomed to become a bad investment over time (heck, it's already begun). Fortunately for me, I'm not in it for the money. I never was. I sold nearly all of my vintage stuff when the reissues first hit. I saw the writing on the wall. As a result, with the exception of a few TFs that I can almost guarentee will never be reissued (or reissued correctly), all that's left of my TF collection is virtually worthless. It's all new and new reissues.

[Ben-Ohki]

shaxper said:

(snipped)
Fortunately for me, I'm not in it for the money. I never was. I sold nearly all of my vintage stuff when the reissues first hit. I saw the writing on the wall. As a result, with the exception of a few TFs that I can almost guarentee will never be reissued (or reissued correctly), all that's left of my TF collection is virtually worthless. It's all new and new reissues.

Ha - this is the most logical thing I've read all day (not difficult since I'm sitting at work with screens full of out-dated code needing a good retro-fit).
Anyway it's for this reason that when I got my hands on the God Ginrai reissue a while ago, I didn't hesitate to rip into the box and start playing with it.

To me, Powermaster Prime was when I took one look at it and said... this is a sad state to see the mighty Optimus Prime in. And that was back when I was 10 years old!! As a yuppie with money to burn in his spare time, I grabbed one as an experiment - how would I react today? Well... okay it was fun to play with for a while... but I still thought it was cheaply engineered. And I also failed to see why this could ever have been considered a much-coveted piece (before the reissue, I mean)... Ah... we were so much more gullible back then.

[Fighbird]

shaxper said:

Also, the collectibility of Transformers, in general, is almost certainly a fad. First off, roughly 8 years of ebay sales have proven that the supply for most TFs far outweighs demands, and reissues have filled the demand for most of the rest. People who were once convinced that there could only be so many G1 Optimus Primes complete and in near mint condition still out there have been proven very wrong. People looking to complete an all metal Predaking have similarly discovered that they can now get a new one for a little over $100. Transformers prices have consistantly fallen throughout the ebay age. As someone who was buying and selling on ebay back in 1998, I can tell you that there was a time when a vintage Prowl in near mint without weapons, box, or instructions could sell for $200 because collectors were convinced there were only so many out there without broken canopies. Now you're lucky if you get $20 for one. I remember that, in my first batch of auctions as an ebay seller, I sold a G1 Prime that was very worn, had a very worn box, and was missing the gas hose, gas nozzle, rifle, and all missiles, sold for $150. I also sold a very worn Powermaster Optimus Prime WITHOUT ITS HEAD for $40.

That is most certainly true, but then again, sealed vintage stuff is still getting more and more expensive, even with the reissues around -- incidentally, I got on eBay as well back in '98, and saw MISB series 1 cars go for like $100/$150, and today they go for about $300-$400 (haven't paid that much attention to it, though). Yes, loose vintage is getting cheaper and cheaper, but the sealed stuff keeps getting more and more valuable. It reminds me of the whole Star Wars collecting community, somehow...

[Fighbird]

Ben-Ohki said:

To me, Powermaster Prime was when I took one look at it and said... this is a sad state to see the mighty Optimus Prime in. And that was back when I was 10 years old!! As a yuppie with money to burn in his spare time, I grabbed one as an experiment - how would I react today? Well... okay it was fun to play with for a while... but I still thought it was cheaply engineered. And I also failed to see why this could ever have been considered a much-coveted piece (before the reissue, I mean)... Ah... we were so much more gullible back then.

I remember him being something of the coolest thing to get at age 10... Diaclone Prime had been long gone from toy shelves, and the toy wasn't "all that" to look at for me back then... When PM Prime came, he was the coolest thing ever! 4 modes (-ish), and the huuuuge super-robot mode! Easily my favourite playset then.

Having the reissue now, I can also see why some consider the japanese version superior with the added paint details, the chrome parts, the diecast and the clear windows (forget about God Bomber...).

The only thing that "clashes" with my childhood romance with this toy is the size... what was huuuuge back then is only so-so these days (I guess that all those Brave 'bots have spoiled me in those regards... ).

[watchin]

As far as investing goes, it is hard to tell what the next fad will be. I agree that TFs are more fun than they are investment pieces. I have a huge Golden Age comic collection that I spent considerable time and money to acquire in the early 1970s and they are no way worth the money that they once were. Die cast toys will always have some appeal to collectors but if it wasn't a part of your youth there won't be much demand for it. On the other hand, when the folks who are divesting their collections right now due to family, houses, new cars etc., they will someday be more financially able to restore their childhood and they will again look for the toys they had as a child. Living proof is the fact that there are still vintage comics that I had when I was six that I would love to find today. Everything hasn't been sold and resold, there are still some finds out there in Aunt Gracie's attic. Don't give up because there isn't a huge market for MIB toys..keep on transforming.