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Post by S_Gokin on Feb 16, 2017 9:36:00 GMT -5
SIX swords?!  I'm ready for KOB v2. Got my 2 SOCs, which I absolutely love, but the KOB v1 holds a special place in my heart (and on my shelf), and with an updated version of KOB, it will only complement my small collection of Lion Force Voltrons even more. nice collection there man i have 2xToynami, 30th anniversary and 25th anniversary 1x SOC 1X KOB v1 1x mattel blazing sword Voltron and im telling you you dont need the Toynami at all, i only got the 30th aniiversary because of the LED eyes and the stand like you the KOB will always be the special voltron to me lol |
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Post by Powermaster X on Feb 16, 2017 10:22:23 GMT -5
SIX swords?! I'm ready for KOB v2. Got my 2 SOCs, which I absolutely love, but the KOB v1 holds a special place in my heart (and on my shelf), and with an updated version of KOB, it will only complement my small collection of Lion Force Voltrons even more. nice collection there man i have 2xToynami, 30th anniversary and 25th anniversary 1x SOC 1X KOB v1 1x mattel blazing sword Voltron and im telling you you dont need the Toynami at all, i only got the 30th aniiversary because of the LED eyes and the stand like you the KOB will always be the special voltron to me lol Thank you! I once had the 20th anniversary but sold it because, believe it or not, I liked the Trendmasters die-cast version more. And I had the MattyCollector 24" version as well but sold off the set once I saw reviews of it and discovered there were poseablity issues--Was really disappointed with that. Any thoughts on the Ultimate EX version? If the price on this were lowered to $250, I'd probably get it... but at $400, no fracking way. $400 gets me a KOB v2 and about halfway to an Arcadia 1/60 VF 1S Strike Valkyrie (Hikaru Ichijo movie version). |
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Post by Coletron on Feb 16, 2017 12:08:23 GMT -5
I know many of the members of RJ already have version one of the KOB. I love it, but I don't need the new one (I counted 23 Voltrons in the video I posted). But, demand for this figure is higher than I realized. There are lots of new collectors popping up on the Google+ Voltron Community. Pictures and info on the KOB are literally getting three times as many likes as the SOC. To the novice, this figure is exotic. I think the long term anticipation/ hope for it's release is peeking excitement. There's a real buzz. Collecting Voltrons is where I got started. Once I got my first, I couldn't wait to buy more. There is a huge untapped market for Voltron. This figure will sell well in the American market.
faelon, I've read and agree with everything you've posted regarding the licensing of this figure. I'm pretty sure you know more about this subject than anyone here. But, the SOC will sell out eventually. I'm wondering if WEP will approve the KOB once Bandai's stock is completely exhausted. Once Bandai has made all of their money, I think possibly WEP will want to take advantage of Voltron's emergence back into the limelight.
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Post by faelon on Feb 16, 2017 14:40:42 GMT -5
For the record, and to satisfy those who keep accusing me of "Speculation", I contacted WEP to ask if KOB was licensed and legit. My curiosity got the better of me. Their response; XXXX- it is not legit, a shame they can get away with this. Thanks for the email! Tiffany Ilardi Head of Licensing WEP, LLC. 50 Maryland Plaza, Suite 300 St. Louis, MO 63108 314-345-1060 <redacted personal info>@wep.com www.voltron.comAnd now knowing this, any possibility or interest I had in purchasing one just died. While I generally try to give my purchase dollars to the legitimate vendors, I will occasionally pick up a unique but unlicensed piece. But I don't pay thieves. Look at that picture of the box for the Black KOB. Look in the lower Right Corner. See the Trademark markings? (Which they likely cut and pasted off of the GX-71 box as the fonts and print line up exactly). Yeah that one simple thing put on the box changes things entirely. It's no longer a "third party" or "unlicensed" or "Bootleg". It's now COUNTERFEIT! Even the classic Lionbot bootleggers had the good sense to not put Popy or Matchbox's trademarks on the box. |
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Post by ninjarobot on Feb 16, 2017 15:20:33 GMT -5
0x Toynami Voltron  True dat. |
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Post by faelon on Feb 16, 2017 15:59:43 GMT -5
I know many of the members of RJ already have version one of the KOB. I love it, but I don't need the new one (I counted 23 Voltrons in the video I posted). But, demand for this figure is higher than I realized. There are lots of new collectors popping up on the Google+ Voltron Community. Pictures and info on the KOB are literally getting three times as many likes as the SOC. To the novice, this figure is exotic. I think the long term anticipation/ hope for it's release is peeking excitement. There's a real buzz. Collecting Voltrons is where I got started. Once I got my first, I couldn't wait to buy more. There is a huge untapped market for Voltron. This figure will sell well in the American market. faelon, I've read and agree with everything you've posted regarding the licensing of this figure. I'm pretty sure you know more about this subject than anyone here. But, the SOC will sell out eventually. I'm wondering if WEP will approve the KOB once Bandai's stock is completely exhausted. Once Bandai has made all of their money, I think possibly WEP will want to take advantage of Voltron's emergence back into the limelight. Go back a page and look at the picture of the Dark Lion box. Look in the lower right corner. "TM and Copyright World Events Production LLC under license to Classic Media LTD". They just stole WEP's Trademark. No they will never license this figure or these manufacturers, or any parties involved with them. It gets worse. Those markings mean this is no longer simply an infringing product. It is a deliberate counterfeit. This isn't a "send a C&D and fight it out in civil court" issue. It's not a matter of how similar the robot is to the IP any more. They published it under a fake and fraudulent trademark. In the US, Canada Europe and Japan customs can simply seize it at the border and destroy it if they discover it. I know this may may seem trivial to everyone, but believe me it isn't. It's the difference between selling a Gucci look alike bag called a Mucci, and making and selling fake bags using fake but real looking Gucci labels and selling them as actual Gucci product. Just from what little I can glean from the Facebook postings of MadToys and Icarus I suspect it went something like this. The original V1 was made on a shoestring margin and unlicensed. After it met market success he somehow attempted to get a license. Probably legitimately and innocently. Things work differently in Hong Kong. Discovering that US Licensors will not grant you a license after you bootleg their product may have been a new experience for MT. We do know that the fact that MT could not be licensed is why the tooling and product had to be transferred or sold to Icarus Toys (through some chain of jumps.) MT recently Stated as much on his Facebook page. Icarus openly posts the box with the WEP trademark on their Facebook page, and in response to a direct inquiry from someone on Jan 30th States unequivocally that it is an official licensed product. Now once again speculation, but the safe bet is Icarus knows fully well this is BS. They may try and claim that they felt they bought a licensed product from MT, but MT's posts run against that. Also the fact that no domestic vendors or importers are listing this one should raise red flags. And the thing about bootlegs is they largely exist or exist or get away with it because they are too small to be bothered with. Even when they infuriate the IP holder. But as market interest spikes, so does Enforcement interest. So increasing fan demand will increase the chances of it being challenged or shut down. |
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Post by Coletron on Feb 16, 2017 16:12:05 GMT -5
Informative as always, faelon. I never would have picked up on that.
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Post by faelon on Feb 16, 2017 16:29:30 GMT -5
0x Toynami Voltron True dat. Let's be fair. The Toynami wasn't bad for its day. It's just that they never improved it after its day. It was the best we had seen 15 years ago. But by the time the 30th Anniversary rolled around and they just re-released the same molds? Gee maybe you could make it so the leg lions stay on when I pick it up? I have the 30th. He's been an acceptable display piece for a few years now, but he is being retired to his box. I'd probably sell him, but I like the stand for the SOC. |
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Post by faelon on Feb 16, 2017 21:37:55 GMT -5
But, the SOC will sell out eventually. I'm wondering if WEP will approve the KOB once Bandai's stock is completely exhausted. Once Bandai has made all of their money, I think possibly WEP will want to take advantage of Voltron's emergence back into the limelight. I forgot to address this above. It doesn't actually work that way. Licenses are typically for a fixed time frame, not an "Until they run out" arrangement. Common Licensing blocks are 2, 3 or 5 years. With some long term arrangements often in 10 year periods. And that will typically encompass some lead time to finalize the product and get it to store shelves, plus enough lead time to sell inventory once you stop or discontinue production. That back end period is often 8-12 months. See for any License such as we are discussing here, the Licensor has product approval and an absolute Veto. So you may do some pre production design work before you have the license. Some basic engineering, maybe even work up some demo prototypes. You then show those to the IP owner as part of the deal making process. If they like what they see they grant you the license and you sign a contract. At that point you have to then go finalize the design and bring it back to them for approval before it goes into production. Everything has to meet their standards. Color standards, shape charts and character guides, they approve the packaging in many cases. Once they sign off on it, which typically takes a few weeks, THEN you send it to the factory to make. You don't put in a factory order and then take a sample of your retail product to show the licencor in order to ask for a license. What happens if they say no? What happens if they want changes? "The Green Lion doesn't match the character design color charts!" Now what do you do? Your product doesn't generally hit the street until 6-12 months after you sign the contract. You then calculate based on your products expected shelf life-cycle, often anywhere from 8 to 36 months depending on what it is. How long will the retailers wish to carry it as a restocked item? For example Movie tie in stuff generally has a short shelf life. 8 months is typical and retailers will not re-order much. IP's that achieve "Evergreen" status are constantly on the shelves, so instead of the full license life cycle you are looking at specific products under the license. Star Wars is a good example of this. Both Hasbro and Lego currently operate 10 year license renewals with Disney/Lucasfilms. But they rotate out and develop new products throughout. So Tie Fighter A might have an expected life cycle of 18 months to then be replaced by X-Wing B. and both fall well with the 10 month contract. You normally know and have made a decision on whether you are renewing a license 8-12 months out. And more often than not you stop shipping new product at that 8 or 12 month mark to give what is already in the channel time to sell through. You are still the license holder during that 8-12 month span. A new licensee can begin the early phases of a new license, such as licencor approvals and begin production, but generally they cannot ship product into the channel until your license ends and your product is pulled from shelves. Technically unsold product is supposed to come back to you to be accounted for or destroyed. More often than not it gets simply sold in bulk to a discount clearance store and nobody cares. Now there are typically some reversion clauses in license contracts. Once you sign a contract you need to hit certain target dates to have product out there. How onerous they are will vary by case. For example a movie tie in you must hit certain hard dates specified by the licencor. Not early nor late. Failure to produce may cause the license to be cancelled or revert. Similarly the licensee can cancel the license at any time. They have no obligation to maintain a product line that isn't selling. For example Mattel likely deliberately ended or cancelled the Voltron license early when they decided to end the Matty Collector program. That freed it up unexpectedly and Bandai was able to jump in with a proposal. As a general rule you don't keep a license if it isn't making you money. You don't normally just run the clock out. Media based licensing is a moderately small community at the end of the day, and getting smaller every day through consolidation. Even if you lose a license today, you will be working with the same people tomorrow on something else. So, while you play hardball and strike the best deals you can, you maintain a personable and professional relationship with all. And to get back to the "until they run out" It also doesn't quite work that way on Bandai's end. Production goes in batches to fill what we think of as The Manufacturers warehouse. Say a 2 week run for 50,000 pieces in the warehouse. (completely random numbers used as an example), that initial production run will typically be what they expect to sell within (hopefully) a specified time frame. Say 6 months or a year. Based on their marketing data. If the product sells out substantially faster than their best case projections they hit decision points. Order more? Let it sell out and discontinue the line? Let it sell out and replace it with a new product that is far enough in the pipeline? Right now Bandai hit "Backordered at the Manufacturer" status inside of 30 days. You know they immediately called the factory and had them prioritize more runs. That's where the economic benefit is. Each time stock runs low they will do a calculation. Each product has an expected and planned EOL (end of life). They will evaluate the speed with which it is selling vs how close they are to that expected EOL. How many buyers do they think are still out there? etc. If it sells out again within a year they might make more or they might retire and replace if they have another similar offering from the same license. (The obvious would be let GX-71 retire and replace it with something like a Dairugger XV.) Yes a product line could be a one factory run and done for the manufacturer, but Bandai would have to be complete morons to do that in this case. Right now the product is exceeding the expected and measured customer base for the core SOC product line. In short it is not simply selling well within the predicted audience. It is substantially growing the consumer base for the wider product line, and substantially growing it into previously untapped overseas markets. They're gonna keep cycling that sucker for a bit. at least until the end of the year. Voltron is for Bandai a "Honeypot" product. It attracts newcomers. There is no benefit to keep it a limited or scarce. (Which is not always the case in the adult collectors market. It bit of scarcity can drive interest. It just doesn't apply here. Natural scarcity from overwelming the initial orders will do the job nicely and naturally.) and here ends todays Business 101. |
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Post by S_Gokin on Feb 17, 2017 8:17:07 GMT -5
Thank you! I once had the 20th anniversary but sold it because, believe it or not, I liked the Trendmasters die-cast version more. And I had the MattyCollector 24" version as well but sold off the set once I saw reviews of it and discovered there were poseablity issues--Was really disappointed with that. Any thoughts on the Ultimate EX version? If the price on this were lowered to $250, I'd probably get it... but at $400, no fracking way. $400 gets me a KOB v2 and about halfway to an Arcadia 1/60 VF 1S Strike Valkyrie (Hikaru Ichijo movie version). you are welcome i honestly dont own the ex version since its way over priced, but some people recommend it, for me personally i dont like it but if i found it cheap and i have some extra cash to burn i might go for it, just for the size |
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Post by S_Gokin on Feb 17, 2017 8:30:24 GMT -5
this is not how things goes on AT ALL first you said the figure will NEVER be released because of WEP and all that but they released it, according to MT WEP approved to give them a license for it, they even showed the Email, but they didn't complete the deal maybe they wanted to hold them till the SOC or maybe they wanted to let them hang with hope that they will give it to them, according to your post WEP them self said "its a shame they will get away with it" well DUH this is China the biggest bird flipping country in the world and near by galaxies lol, the copyrights or TM just isn't there, you mentioned the Gucci bags and its totally different if they make a look like with a different close name and a look like with the same name, its not actually, they are doing those since what 2005 ? and they got away with it since, Ive read somewhere that's some of Gucci officials said we cant even differentiate between them this how good the copies were in another case they copied the exact same design of the Range Rover Evoque and produce it under another company name when Land Rover filed a lawsuit they got the reply "we dont see any similarity between your car and that company car" case close just like that but even with all that drama MT was patient and they wanted to do the right thing by getting a license second, no one will brag about the figure brand or if its licensed or not, all what people want is a decent figure, and that what the KOB offered in the time of Toynami milking, speaking of Toynami as a fan of the character, they killed it for me with their awful 10 years milking plan they gives nothing new same QCs mold with minor changes even tho most of people complained about it nothing changed personally i believe thanks to KOB we got the SOC, finally WEP got the truth that Toynami isn't the right choice so they should give a license to someone as good as Bandai to bring them ton of cash and it worked now guess who started taking preorders on both version of the V2 KOB ? and its not a Chines store ? www.anime-export.com/product/34959www.anime-export.com/product/34960release date May 2017 the figure will be out and it will be sold just like the V1 did, only it will be much bigger since alot of those who didn't get the first one will get this along with the SOC  |
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Post by ninjarobot on Feb 17, 2017 9:53:25 GMT -5
0x Toynami Voltron True dat. Let's be fair. The Toynami wasn't bad for its day. It's just that they never improved it after its day. It was the best we had seen 15 years ago. But by the time the 30th Anniversary rolled around and they just re-released the same molds? Gee maybe you could make it so the leg lions stay on when I pick it up? I have the 30th. He's been an acceptable display piece for a few years now, but he is being retired to his box. I'd probably sell him, but I like the stand for the SOC. again. true dat. seriously though, yes, when it first released, I thought it looked nice, but not the price. And there really wasn't anything else to compare it to. I ultimately passed on it. I would like to add one to my collection, but for the cost, personally I would rather spend my money on something else, which I did the SoC. best decision ever. |
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Post by BIGFIRE on Feb 17, 2017 9:54:44 GMT -5
Thanks S_Gokin.
I'm still on the fence about this one but I haven't cancelled my preorder yet. I'll think about it a while longer.
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Post by faelon on Feb 17, 2017 10:22:21 GMT -5
this is not how things goes on AT ALL first you said the figure will NEVER be released because of WEP and all that but they released it, according to MT WEP approved to give them a license for it, they even showed the Email, but they didn't complete the deal maybe they wanted to hold them till the SOC or maybe they wanted to let them hang with hope that they will give it to them, according to your post WEP them self said "its a shame they will get away with it" well DUH this is China the biggest bird flipping country in the world and near by galaxies lol, the copyrights or TM just isn't there, you mentioned the Gucci bags and its totally different if they make a look like with a different close name and a look like with the same name, its not actually, they are doing those since what 2005 ? and they got away with it since, Ive read somewhere that's some of Gucci officials said we cant even differentiate And you live someplace where they don't police heavily for this sort of thing. between them this how good the copies were in another case they copied the exact same design of the Range Rover Evoque and produce it under another company name when Land Rover filed a lawsuit they got the reply "we dont see any similarity between your car and that company car" case close just like that but even with all that drama MT was patient and they wanted to do the right thing by getting a license second, no one will brag about the figure brand or if its licensed or not, all what people want is a decent figure, and that what the KOB offered in the time of Toynami milking, speaking of Toynami as a fan of the character, they killed it for me with their awful 10 years milking plan they gives nothing new same QCs mold with minor changes even tho most of people complained about it nothing changed personally i believe thanks to KOB we got the SOC, finally WEP got the truth that Toynami isn't the right choice so they should give a license to someone as good as Bandai to bring them ton of cash and it worked now guess who started taking preorders on both version of the V2 KOB ? and its not a Chines store ? www.anime-export.com/product/34959www.anime-export.com/prodrelease date May 2017 the figure will be out and it will be sold just like the V1 did, only it will be much bigger since alot of those who didn't get the first one will get this along with the SOC I said it would never be released as a licensed product. The e-mail MT showed off was a polite low level discussion/inquiry between themselves and someone at Dreamworks. Not WEP. The Dreamworks respondent said they might be interested and suggested they submit an application. But even then the license holder was WEP. And WEP had already cut deals with Bandai while Sreamworks cut an exclusive deal with Playmates. His magic "see I have an e-mail is complete and utter bullsh*t. He knows exactly what he did or did not sign. MT admits on their Facebook page that the reason it could not be released under the MT name and had to be sold to Icarus was licensing. So yes WEP did indeed prevent MT from releasing it. That Land Rover comparison no longer applies. Up until this point it was a purely civil matter WEP would have to prove in court that it was infringing on their IP, point by point in the design similarities. And frankly KOB was distinct enough to fall into the grey areas. But now they f**ked up. It no longer matters what is in the box. The robot design does not matter. They put WEP's Trademark on the packaging. That's counterfeiting. All WEP has to do is say "this isn't ours" to put customs flags on the product. It won't catch all of them, but if you are buying one in North America or Europe there is suddenly a whole new level of risk. Yes it's a shame they can get away with it. There is no legal way to shut such things down at the factory because China does not honor IP or Trademark law. But it does make it much harder to sell throughout the rest of the world. This isn't dollar store discount merchandise. This is a high level adult collectible. Think back to how how much trouble you had picking up your GX-71 from the post office in your country. What will happen if it shows up on a list of counterfeit product from customs? |
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Post by KumaStyle.com (TJ) on Feb 17, 2017 11:52:26 GMT -5
I'm confused at the amount of focus in this thread on it being unlicensed Rather than the qualities of the product itself.
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Post by locidm on Feb 17, 2017 12:16:49 GMT -5
Well the existing KOB we all know it's ok quality but not up to par with the SOC. Nothing more to discuss there. Lol. I don't think the new ones are out yet so nothing to discuss there either.
I've actually learned quite a bit from this discussion. Thanks Faleon!
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Post by faelon on Feb 17, 2017 12:59:20 GMT -5
I'm confused at the amount of focus in this thread on it being unlicensed Rather than the qualities of the product itself. They are marketing it as an official licensed product. They have that on the box. That claim is what drummed up all the interest in V2. And that claim would appear to be a lie at every turn. There are times when the producers business practices will call the product itself into question. Which is a shame. It looks like a great robot. I love the swords. Where the licensing becomes an issue is ultimately in deciding risk. At the moment Icarus is not only telling everyone that this is an official licensed product when it isn't, they are placing a falsified Trademark identification on the packaging. That means purchaser risk has shot up dramatically. For a $200-300 overseas purchase; - If they are lying about the license and trademark to sell it to you to begin with, how much CS do you think you will honestly get from them? Hope for a good one, because safe bet is nobody is picking up the phone if North America calls. - How much are you prepared to lose? What are PayPals refund policies if a product is seized by customs? (I'm honestly curious? I've never seen a situation where it is a risk before?) - what does it's bootleg or counterfeit status do to it's long term value? Bootlegs generally don't go up in value the way Licensed do. As an example the MM VEhicle Voltron can readily be found about 30% below MSRP today. (And yes I know there were issues but it is still somewhat unique. The only game in town.) - if it gets flagged as counterfeit due to fake trademarks how do you sell it? eBay can shut down auctions. It's a robot. Is it nice enough to absorb the shipping handling and CS risk? Is it nice enough to absorb the plateau or loss in value going forward? Are you the type of consumer that tries to avoid bootleg or counterfeit goods? That only became interested when they announced it was licensed? How does the information that that was a lie impact your purchasing decision? As for the robot itself? V1 was a really nice robot. It had a few flaws, but they look to have been addressed in V2. I think SOC is a better sculpt, but KOB is up there. If it had stayed with MAd Toys, who obviously created this thing as a labor of love, I would not be concerned about quality. But the tooling and designs have changed hands a few times now and by their own admission MT is not involved in the process or production any longer. That raises red flags to me. Whoever bought those molds and designs is just seeking to flip them for profit. They are already openly lying in a rather serious way in order to get your money without you asking a lot of questions. I've dealt with import manufacturing and distribution for 30+ years now. Every time that tooling and producer changes hands QC typically gets worse. We may get lucky. Icarus is clearly seeking to build a brand now. But that would be the exception to the norm when stuff starts getting passed around. Quality typically drops with each jump. Not always mind you, just far far more often than not. You cringe whenever you hear of a factory change. So base your purchase decision on all available information. |
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Post by FixedInPost on Feb 17, 2017 13:06:03 GMT -5
In short, this seems akin to buying speakers off the back of a van in a mall parking lot.
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Post by faelon on Feb 17, 2017 13:24:15 GMT -5
In short, this seems akin to buying speakers off the back of a van in a mall parking lot. Pretty much. It might be a great robot. But buyer be warned. |
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Post by KumaStyle.com (TJ) on Feb 17, 2017 15:08:06 GMT -5
I'm confused at the amount of focus in this thread on it being unlicensed Rather than the qualities of the product itself. They are marketing it as an official licensed product. They have that on the box. That claim is what drummed up all the interest in V2. But it's not. I'm someone with an actual pulse on the community and not once have I seen interest in this "because it's (not) licensed," but rather the improvements in the design, colors, etc.. I also believe that things like the new show and SoC brought about new interest in Voltron in general. It's not licensed. Ok; That's all there really is to it vs. the drawn out conversation about it. Some may be turned off by unlicensed stuff. Ok; their right. At the end of the day, it be nice to not have to sift through all of the overly-elongated, irrelevant stuff to be able to see and discuss the toy itself. |
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