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Post by faelon on Mar 22, 2017 12:45:35 GMT -5
"Maybe it's just sold out?" I asked Customer Services where the listing went. The answer was basically The item has been removed from listing while we await a response from the vendor and from WEP regarding its license status. BBTS does not sell unauthorized product. BBTS does sell a ton of third party and KO transformers that are not licensed. The differences between those and KOB I think are as follow: 1. The transformers 3rd party/KO products don't label themselves as transformers, do not have a transformers logo, and do not claim to be licensed products. This KOB renewal on the other hand, does all three with respect to Voltron. 2. Takara Tomy / Hasbro has not been going after these 3rd party/KO companies, and have not been known to hand out C&D to these companies. WEP, on the other hand, is quite actively doing what they can to limit KOs/unlicensed products. I'm sure WEP caught word of the BBTS listing and contacted (more like threatened) them about it. Nevertheless, BBTS's claim that they don't sell unlicensed product, if true, is hypocritical at best. It's a little more complex than that. With a few subleties. BBTS sells "Third Party" stuff, which is a gray area. It's an issue of Copyright. And one in which the manufacturer would need to serve C&D's and prove points of similarity. None of what they sell calls itself a Transformer. Nor does it perfectly match TT or Hasbro's IP in a 1:1 fashion. It's fuzzy. But this is largely a purely civil matter. An X-Transbots offering may resemble a Transformers character, but TT would need to prove each case to a judge. By and large Customs does not get involved in Copyright disputes unless there is a judgement or court order. It's an expensive problem to fight due to how subjective it can sometimes be. KO's are another matter. They copy not just the idea or character, but the actual physical engineering of somebody else's product. There is no grey area there. They are infringing. But even then you still need to serve the C&D etc and get a Judge to agree typically. (Sometimes not depending on how agregious it is.) Trademark is another thing altogether. If you claim something is authorized when it is not. Put somebody else's Trademark on what is not their product, you get attention. Customs, legal etc. The IP holder does not need to serve you with a C&D. All they need do is submit affidavits certifying that your product is not what it claims to be. Your false markings are essentially a confession. Product may be seized and destroyed without any court intervention. There is no counter argument. There is no gray area. There is no appeal. This is why reputable merchants don't deal in this stuff. It can be seized and destroyed and they get stuck having paid for it. That's the screwy and idiotic thing in all of this. KOB V1 was a well made niche stylized 3rd party figure. No different from those 3p Transformers. WEP could cry about it, maybe pointlessly file a C&D. But it doesn't do much against a HK manufacturer. The best they could effectively do was scare off some larger North American vendors. It existed in that gray area. But then Mad Toys claimed to be getting a license (which was never ever going to happen after V1 released unlicensed. Trust me.) And instead of quietly backing off that claim when the SOC was announced, kept doubling down. Up until the moment they printed WEP's trademarks on the box. I would ask what in holy hell were they thinking? But sadly I know the answer to this one... it's all about the money. |
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Post by faelon on Mar 22, 2017 12:48:21 GMT -5
Got this straight from BBTS: From what I was informed after discussing this internally, these products were offered to us from a reliable vendor who typically would not offer something that is not licensed. BBTS strives to only offer authentic products and we obviously prefer to avoid a product if there is a licensing complication. Therefore, I have been informed that the items in reference have since been temporarily removed from our website so that we can confirm with both the vendor as well as WEP that the items can be sold as is. If there is any sort of issue, we will permanently remove these listings and cancel preorders accordingly. Unfortunately, from what I've learned thus far, things are leaning more towards being canceled and removed versus being republished. That's the exact same message I got. (I didn't want to cut and paste it as it directly as it had "not for redistribution" markings on the bottom, and I can be anal about such things due to force of habit.) |
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Post by FixedInPost on Mar 22, 2017 12:49:45 GMT -5
woops....Here's a question though. Does this information make this figure MORE collectible or no?
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Post by faelon on Mar 22, 2017 12:59:07 GMT -5
woops....Here's a question though. Does this information make this figure MORE collectible or no? It's both yes and no. It makes it a rarer figure. It will have value to a specific type of Collector. But not as broad of an appeal as something official like the SOC. The two best examples are likely the old Chinese "Lionbot" that was a really good copy of the Popy, and the Miracle Metals Vehicle Voltron. Both remain collectible, to the right interested parties, but neither hits the aftermarket value or pricing that the authentic product does. MMVV can still be found at or slightly below MSRP. I think both the Toynami MP and the EX will see a greater long term rise in aftermarket price or value. |
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Post by locidm on Mar 22, 2017 13:09:25 GMT -5
Got this straight from BBTS: From what I was informed after discussing this internally, these products were offered to us from a reliable vendor who typically would not offer something that is not licensed. BBTS strives to only offer authentic products and we obviously prefer to avoid a product if there is a licensing complication. Therefore, I have been informed that the items in reference have since been temporarily removed from our website so that we can confirm with both the vendor as well as WEP that the items can be sold as is. If there is any sort of issue, we will permanently remove these listings and cancel preorders accordingly. Unfortunately, from what I've learned thus far, things are leaning more towards being canceled and removed versus being republished. That's the exact same message I got. (I didn't want to cut and paste it as it directly as it had "not for redistribution" markings on the bottom, and I can be anal about such things due to force of habit.) Interesting choice of words from BBTS: "BBTS strives to only offer authentic products and we obviously prefer to avoid a product if there is a licensing complication." The 3rd party TF toys fit that bill because the designs are authentic, but not KOs. Neither does KOB renewal because of licensing complication. I don't think BBTS sell too many KOs, the closest ones I can think of are the Igear version of the TF seekers (starscream, thundercracker, and skywarp), which were actually modified and improved from the official version. Perhaps BBTS isn't hypocritical afterall! |
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Post by faelon on Mar 22, 2017 13:26:58 GMT -5
That's the exact same message I got. (I didn't want to cut and paste it as it directly as it had "not for redistribution" markings on the bottom, and I can be anal about such things due to force of habit.) Interesting choice of words from BBTS: "BBTS strives to only offer authentic products and we obviously prefer to avoid a product if there is a licensing complication." The 3rd party TF toys fit that bill because the designs are authentic, but not KOs. Neither does KOB renewal because of licensing complication. I don't think BBTS sell too many KOs, the closest ones I can think of are the Igear version of the TF seekers (starscream, thundercracker, and skywarp), which were actually modified and improved from the official version. Perhaps BBTS isn't hypocritical afterall! It's a little more complicated than it seems. And sometimes it is a bit of a guessing game. Comparing KOB to Third Party Transformers for these purposes is ultimately Apples and Oranges. For another reason that is not often understood. The IP owner not only has a Right to act if their IP is violated, if they are licensing that IP out to third party Licensors, under the terms of the contracts they have an absolute legal obligation to act in order to protect not just their IP but their third party partners paid for license and associated interests. in the case of Transformers HazTak own the property outright and does not sub license it into these areas. That means that while they have the Right to act, they also have the discretion not to act. Their only obligation is to themselves and their perceived interests. In the case of the MMVV notice while WEP could have clearly acted, they quietly opted not to. Yes the license was held by Mattel, but Mattel was not exploiting it in a way that MMVV triggered their attention, or that they requested WEP to act. Discretion played a part. Same thing with KOB V1. WEP could have acted, but saw no benefit in doing so. But things changed with KoB v2. WEP has a new license partner, for whom KOB is an unquestioned direct competitor. Bandai.(also Playmates) Under the terms of their license contract Bandai has an absolute expectation that WEP will act to enforce and defend the IP. If Bandai sees a pre-order listing for KOB they shoot it over to WEP with a little note basically asking "WTF?" And WEP starts making phone calls. You have an obligation to work to preserve the value of the IP you are licensing to others. Bandai can't (technically) go after KOB directly. They must pass it back to WEP to resolve if possible. Or at least make the attempt. BBTS knows the nuances of this all, and largely seems to navigate it well. If ever you want to see the various interplays a good source is to look at the various Lucasfilms Licensors over the years, and some of the tit for tat stuff. |
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Post by S_Gokin on Mar 22, 2017 14:50:30 GMT -5
interesting points but BBTS have a section for third parties figures !? also locidm mention couple of good points regarding how active the owners are lets wait and see what will happen next |
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Post by Coletron on Mar 22, 2017 16:31:47 GMT -5
woops....Here's a question though. Does this information make this figure MORE collectible or no? It's both yes and no. It makes it a rarer figure. It will have value to a specific type of Collector. But not as broad of an appeal as something official like the SOC. The two best examples are likely the old Chinese "Lionbot" that was a really good copy of the Popy, and the Miracle Metals Vehicle Voltron. Both remain collectible, to the right interested parties, but neither hits the aftermarket value or pricing that the authentic product does. MMVV can still be found at or slightly below MSRP. I think both the Toynami MP and the EX will see a greater long term rise in aftermarket price or value. I've only been collecting robots for four years. Many of you guys know way more about this stuff than I do. But, I do understand economics. In the USA, Voltron's demand is at an all time high. In stores like Walmart, you can't find a single lion for the Legendary Defender combiner - and it was released several months ago. As a kid, I was swept up by the craze in 1985. (I'm still not over it!). With a total of six seasons hitting Netflix and a movie announced, Voltron has never been hotter than right now. Everyone on RJ who wants this figure already got it the first time around. But, there is a massive influx of new collectors in the States who want more than one version of this robot. Everywhere I post pictures of the KOB V1, it gets a huge response. Coupled with the fact that pre-orders have been up on eBay and other shops for several months, there is a real buzz. And, overall the reviews of the first edition (Collection Dx) are great (as opposed to the MA01). Demand is high for this product in the USA. And, at least here, it does look like it will be hard to get. Also, seven or eight months ago on eBay, used, mint KOBs actually sold for $450+. So, I forcast the value to go up. |
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Post by faelon on Mar 22, 2017 23:05:36 GMT -5
It's both yes and no. It makes it a rarer figure. It will have value to a specific type of Collector. But not as broad of an appeal as something official like the SOC. The two best examples are likely the old Chinese "Lionbot" that was a really good copy of the Popy, and the Miracle Metals Vehicle Voltron. Both remain collectible, to the right interested parties, but neither hits the aftermarket value or pricing that the authentic product does. MMVV can still be found at or slightly below MSRP. I think both the Toynami MP and the EX will see a greater long term rise in aftermarket price or value. I've only been collecting robots for four years. Many of you guys know way more about this stuff than I do. But, I do understand economics. In the USA, Voltron's demand is at an all time high. In stores like Walmart, you can't find a single lion for the Legendary Defender combiner - and it was released several months ago. As a kid, I was swept up by the craze in 1985. (I'm still not over it!). With a total of six seasons hitting Netflix and a movie announced, Voltron has never been hotter than right now. Everyone on RJ who wants this figure already got it the first time around. But, there is a massive influx of new collectors in the States who want more than one version of this robot. Everywhere I post pictures of the KOB V1, it gets a huge response. Coupled with the fact that pre-orders have been up on eBay and other shops for several months, there is a real buzz. And, overall the reviews of the first edition (Collection Dx) are great (as opposed to the MA01). Demand is high for this product in the USA. And, at least here, it does look like it will be hard to get. Also, seven or eight months ago on eBay, used, mint KOBs actually sold for $450+. So, I forcast the value to go up. It will go up. Especially as it becomes rarer. They all largely go up. I just don't think KOB will become some Ultra Rare Holy Grail item that will be insanely sought after by collectors. It will fetch a nice price. I just think some of the others will go up more and faster over time. If you have one you likely won't lose money on it, it just won't be your retirement plan. |
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Post by S_Gokin on Mar 23, 2017 11:07:11 GMT -5
till today every time i post a photo for KOB v1 in my Instagram i get offers lol
its going to worth more with time
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Post by Powermaster X on May 1, 2017 13:09:46 GMT -5
Does anyone know if this thing is still going to be released? I know it's not an official product, but I had actually been looking forward to getting one to complement by SOC and KOB V1.
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Post by batsugun on May 1, 2017 14:35:25 GMT -5
Does anyone know if this thing is still going to be released? I know it's not an official product, but I had actually been looking forward to getting one to complement by SOC and KOB V1. Wondering the same thing myself. LCM toy charged me the final payment months ago. There's no updates on Icarus toys or mad toys Facebook pages. Icarus toys does not respond to emails. I also ordered one from Greattoys online. Still waiting for response from them. LCM insists they are still getting them but the date keeps getting pushed back. This did happen with the first release of the figure. I did get that one. It didn't take this long though. |
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Post by S_Gokin on May 1, 2017 15:06:12 GMT -5
last time i checked the release date is still on May 2017 (this month)
is there any new official news ?
my point of view is MT picked an awful time to release it, you have alot of hot figures to get, im not saying the KOB is not hot its just that most people got V1 and they are happy with it so instead of burning cash on something i have but with few updates, i will get a new awesome gokin
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Post by KumaStyle.com (TJ) on May 1, 2017 20:08:25 GMT -5
last time i checked the release date is still on May 2017 (this month) is there any new official news ? my point of view is MT picked an awful time to release it, you have alot of hot figures to get, im not saying the KOB is not hot its just that most people got V1 and they are happy with it so instead of burning cash on something i have but with few updates, i will get a new awesome gokin I think it's kind of hard to judge a good time to release a figure as you never know when other things are actually releasing. There's no gauranteed slow toy month. |
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Post by BIGFIRE on May 1, 2017 23:49:35 GMT -5
I had preordered this through LCMToys and had good communication with him but I sent him and email last week and he didn't respond so I opened a case on PayPal. I have no patience for someone who has my money and isn't responding. I recently saw a post on one of the strings saying that they had a bad experience with him. My patience has run out on this piece. I'll pick it up when it actually hits stores.
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Post by S_Gokin on May 2, 2017 3:07:47 GMT -5
I think it's kind of hard to judge a good time to release a figure as you never know when other things are actually releasing. There's no gauranteed slow toy month. in my humble opinion the best time for them was in Feb - March but they missed it, if they couldn't release it now in May, it will be hard for them to release it since we have alot of things coming in later I had preordered this through LCMToys and had good communication with him but I sent him and email last week and he didn't respond so I opened a case on PayPal. I have no patience for someone who has my money and isn't responding. I recently saw a post on one of the strings saying that they had a bad experience with him. My patience has run out on this piece. I'll pick it up when it actually hits stores. i got mine from LCM the dude was very polite and helpful, but i guess he is a one man team thats why its hard to keep up with the strong demand and the customers emails but i totally feel you bro its a bummer to have your money reserved for something that keep getting delays, thats why always try to order from places that dont ask for money in front unless you really have too |
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Post by vgm on May 8, 2017 20:20:37 GMT -5
Polite and helpful? hahahah ya right, what a joke. The dude from LCM is a total jerk and scammer! He stole my money and refuses to give it back even though he offered me the option to cancel my pre order.
You are better off picking it up elsewhere then from this jerk.
Glad you had a nice experience with him S_Gokin but I dont trust him anymore. Not after the sh*t he put and is still putting me through. He still owes me $116 that i will never see again.
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Post by Holygrail on May 9, 2017 17:29:58 GMT -5
Polite and helpful? hahahah ya right, what a joke. The dude from LCM is a total jerk and scammer! He stole my money and refuses to give it back even though he offered me the option to cancel my pre order. You are better off picking it up elsewhere then from this jerk. Glad you had a nice experience with him S_Gokin but I dont trust him anymore. Not after the sh*t he put and is still putting me through. He still owes me $116 that i will never see again. Yup, he scammed me to. Told me the item was in stock. I ordered the item, then after a week of not responding, he finally responded and said he doesn't have the item?  !!!. I asked for a refund but he said sorry sales are final. Had to do a chargeback on my card. |
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Post by BIGFIRE on May 9, 2017 21:39:25 GMT -5
You guys make me feel very fortunate.
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Post by tjdetweiler on May 9, 2017 22:11:52 GMT -5
Polite and helpful? hahahah ya right, what a joke. The dude from LCM is a total jerk and scammer! He stole my money and refuses to give it back even though he offered me the option to cancel my pre order. You are better off picking it up elsewhere then from this jerk. Glad you had a nice experience with him S_Gokin but I dont trust him anymore. Not after the sh*t he put and is still putting me through. He still owes me $116 that i will never see again. Yup, he scammed me to. Told me the item was in stock. I ordered the item, then after a week of not responding, he finally responded and said he doesn't have the item? !!!. I asked for a refund but he said sorry sales are final. Had to do a chargeback on my card. Aawwwwwww no good man! Not your fault with its not in stock after you paid - did you get your money back? |
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